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Thomas Hobbes

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What a great start! I would say that you're stretching the Enlightenment a bit, Hobbes is rather a philosopher of the Scientific Revolution. That said, I'm fascinated by your ideas, especially of a God who could have been evil enough to create us without souls.... I'm really looking forwards to comments on this edit! =) /Ylva

A realy intresting point of wiew. I don't belive in god so therfore I don't think that he created us, but if he does exist it must have been him who created us this way. So I think that your thoughts are realy interesting and I think that your analysis about what he said is good and, from my point of wiew, right

There seems to be some problems with the links to the cartoon and info on Thomas Hobbes, please go to the pages manually instead. (ex writing http://gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1986/01/24/ in the "white field" where you write the URL. (I don't know what it's called))

Indeed a very interesting thing to discuss, as always when it comes to questions concerning existance. I do not believe in god in that way either, so therefor I think i would consider good/evil in a similar way to Hobbe´s explanation.



But still, how would it be possible for him to back up his theories better if he had lived today? As you said, we still don't know whether God exits or not, and hence this question is still, just like it was back then, something like religion vs. science. And I'm not sure we will ever come to an end about that.



But I think that people living in the 21st century are more likely to accept that God has not created everything. But we have to think of that Hobbes thoughts ought have been very scaring to people of his time, as they were very rational and new and differed to everything they knew about and believed in.



Awesome work LIa! (:

Well, Victoria, Hobbes' theories about how we function like "machines" can be backed up today, as we learn more and more about our brains and about how our bodies work. In Hobbes' time, mankind didn't really know that much about the human body and especially about the brain.

For example, today we know that everything which we do is decided in the brain, and that there isn't a magical soul which decides what we'll do. We know today that wether we like the colour red or not is decided in the brain, based on e.g. past experiences, and that it's not a part of our soul which decides that we like red.

That said, I think that was an excellent question which really got me thinking. And please prove me wrong on this- or try to!

I do believe in science as well, and a lot of things in this aspect can be proved by science. Science is dugging us deeper and deeper into our own body all the time, by now we more or less have the knowledge to be able to build a human. We know exactly how every organ work and so on, but still, if we would put everything correctly together, we would not be able to make it live. There is something, (or someone if you like it that way), that puts life into the body. Biologicaly things such as pleasure and joy etc. do not exist in our body, organs, from the beginning. And therefor I thought, yeah why not a God put it there?



I don't know! Eager to hear what you think!(:

Well, Victoria, if we would put every organ CORRECTLY together, we would make something living. Heard of Frankenstein? We'll be able to do that, soon enough :)

The tricky part might be to get the brain functioning, but like you said, if we put everything correctly together we would get a perfect human being- therefore, we would be able to create a human. We simply don't know how to create a human being yet, to put it together CORRECTLY, though we can create human cells- the first step to creating humans synthetically (or at least human organs).

And we experience pleasure and joy because of endorphins which are released in our body :)

The thing is that even if we would learn how to put every organ togehter in our body it would still be just.. organs. Meat you know. Or, do you mean that the life-giving-process has something to do with which order organs are put togehter? Sounds a little bit occult to me, which takes the theory away from both Hobbe´s idea and the religious view.



But indeed, it is scientifically proved that pleasure is a reslut of endorphins. And until we know how to create those things, we should just enjoy them! ;)

Well, I disagree that it would be "just meat" if we would put organs together, since I believe that we're completely controlled by our brains. But if you'd think of it your way, aren't we just meat as well? Since our thoughts, personalities and you name it are controlled by our brains?



Also, speaking of creating endorphines/joy, ever heard of antidepressants?

What I meant was that our names, feelings and thougnt can't possibly be driven by meat. Well, physically yes, but not emotionally. Or maybe I'm just romanticizing it all;)



And speaking about antidepressive! I am not 100% sure of this, but isn't it the medecine that produces endorphines? it's not like we actually eat them! Right?

(first of all, I forgot to write my name on the earlier blog post before Victoria, but it was me, Lia, who wrote that)



Since I believe that this is all decided by our brains, and you disagree on this I think this is as far as we're going to get discussing that :)



But with the antidepressants, I think you're right that the medicine only makes our bodies produce more endorphines, but I'm not 100% sure about this either. However, I believe that we'll be able to produce endorphines soon (if we're not yet able to), though antidepressants might be more effective the way it is today. However, I mean that through eating antidepressants, we get happier, thus creating happiness/joy through the medicine.

As a result; scientists can create happiness and are therefore God!



;)

Very interesting "article" Lia!



But I don't agree with you when you say that there is no god. I don't believe in God as in the Bible and that he did lots of amazing things and that Jesus was his sign to us human beings on Earth and so on. But I believe in something "bigger" than ourselves... This "god" is like a supervisor or whatever you would like to call it...



You have very interesting thoughts about heaven and hell. I don't think I believe in things like this either. I think that you are born again maybe as something else... Of course you don't remember what you were in your earlier life, you have "started from scrath" and living a new life =)What do you think about that? =)



Again, amazing work Lia! =)

Since I'm a complete atheist, I simply believe that when we die, there is nothing, and that we simply dissolve into atoms, which are later used in other beings, living or other. So in a way, I believe that we'll be "reborn" as something else, since the atoms/molecules in our bodies will be used for other things in the universe, maybe even another human :)



Also, the things which I write about heaven and hell are not my own thoughts on hell and heaven, I just speculate on how it might be. Just to make it clear that I don't think there is a God who is evil enough to create us so that we'd burn in hell for eternity :)

Good work Lia!



I don't believe in God either, but as Hanna said I believe in something bigger, because something must have brought us to earth and yes it was my mom and dad who brought me to earth but how it all actually started I don't know and I don't think we will ever know it either. So I don't think it does matter if Hobbes would be alive now because I can't see anyway to prove that God does or does not exist.



However this is a very interesting thing to discuss since there is so many different thoughts and opinions about it.

Haha "my mum and dad brought me to earth" seems like something which Thomas Hobbes would say, since he was very practical :) reminds me a bit of the cartoon I've got linked to this article, where Hobbes looks at the back of Calvin's t-shirt and states that he came from Taiwan :D



Anyway, I don't think it's any easier or harder to prove if God exists today than it was during Hobbe's time, although his theories about us functioning like "machines", which the brain etc controlling us instead of the soul, are easier to prove today. Though they may both exist, with the soul "carrying on" the information which is in our brain when we die. Although I personally don't believe that, that may been true. Or it may not. There's no way to prove it yet :)

First of all really good work Lia!



I don't believe in God either but as Hanna said I believe in something "bigger". I mean, we have been brought to earth in some way and yes my mom and dad brought me to earth, but how it all actually started I don't think we will ever know. I don't think that there is a way to prove if God does or does not exist either, I think we will find that out when we die and at that time it is to late to tell people about it. So I don't think that it would matter if Hobbes was alive now because I don't think anyone will be able to prove if God exist or not.



However it is a very interesting thing to discuss because there is so many different thoughts and opinions about it.

sorry that I posted two almost identical comments but I thought that my first disappeard because I couldn't see it before I understood that i had to update the page.



However I really understand your point of view and I agree with that about us functioning like "machines" and that the brain controlling us instead of the soul but as you said, there is no way to prove it yet and I think it will be really difficult, almost impossible to prove it, but who knows what the future brings, let's just wait and see.

I think that you have done a very good work! It was interesting to read your thoughts and your discussion was really awesome!! I'm a litte spiritual so I don't agree with you at some points but this is a very good article Lia! ;)

Lia,

this is a very interesting article! I enjoyed reading it!

You presented Hobbes' opinion in a short and consistent way! I really really read your article with much interest!

But...!



I disagree with it at some points. Or, maybe I don't disagree with the article, just with Hobbes' theories. :D

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True, Hobbes was very cynical. And of what I know, he would attack any institution of the Church.

It might seem silly, but I DO believe in God or souls or Heaven and Hell. And that is probably the first and the most important reason why I'm not agreeing with Hobbes...



I've read a bit about Hobbes myself; what I found is quite interesting. He stated that obedience and respecting the law are only possible with the usage of fear (people should be scared). Also, he believed that man is by nature an egoist. Moreover, people should accept the system of the country they live in. Of course, democracy is much WORSE than the rule of aristocracy. (So, he did not believe that everybody is equal... did he?) Tolerance should be limited and the state has the right to eliminate wrong views (which means those views, which are simply not accepted by aristocracy then???) The same when it comes to religion -- it should be controlled by the state as well.

It doesn't sound like a 'nice' place to me. Or...?

True, if Hobbes thought of himself as an egoist with the evil tendencies (limiting him from doing something bad by good education), let him spend his life in this 'Leviathan' he desired!

I just simply do not support his view on man and society...

Okey... So we both think that we will be reborn after we're dead just in a different way =)

But if we're just atoms and molcules what make us different? Because we are "built" of the same molecules... So according to me it's our thoughts and our soul which makes us diffrent from each other =) What do you think? =)

Kamila, I don't think that Hobbe's theories about the society and how fear should be used for upholding the law are good either. However, fear is a good way for getting people to respect your laws, even if it's not a morally good way.



I haven't read that much about Hobbe's opinions about society and so, only about the things mentioned in this article since I thought it'd be too much to write about ALL of his theories ;)

However, since I do know that he was very practical, he probably only thought of the most efficient, easy way to rule a country rather what was morally right and best for most. (the most efficient and fastest way to rule is by some kind of dictatorship, even though most don't like this. Except for the dictator :D)



Even though we probably disagree on some of Hobbe's theories simply because you're religious and I'm not, I also think that everyone should be equal and that and that people shouldn't always accept the system of the country they live in. Also, I believe that ruling by only using fear to control the masses will never last for long.



Interesting ideas, Kamila!

Hanna: didn't see that you commented until now!

I believe that it's solely our brains that decide who we are, and the connections made in the brain etc. Therefore, when we die and become molecules and atoms again, I don't believe that any of our personalities are "carried on" in the molecules or so :)

Thus, I believe that when we die, we're simply gone. I do however think that we "live on" in the way that we've influenced others while being alive, which we all do all the time wether we want it or not. And I also think it's a nice thought that the atoms in our bodies will help build other things, living or not, in the universe after our death :)

Hanna,

that's a very good arguement! Each and every single human being is different, so there has to be something that makes us this way. We have thoughts that let us make our own decisions. If we were machines, wouldn't we just follow others? Hobbes seems to be an intelligent person, after all HE came up with this theory. That doesn't really sound like a mechanical way of living one's life, does it? Finding other explanations, building his own path with thoughts about people...

Anyway, I agree with you, Hanna, that there has to be something that differs us from each other!



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Lia,

mayne you are right: fear is desired nowadays. It is sort of the way society in today's world functions. After all, when you commit a crime, you may go to jail. Or when you drive your car in an unappropriate way, you may get a ticket and pay for it!

:) so, sometimes this kind of 'fear' works ;)



Of course, I would not demand from you to know everything about Thomas Hobbes. I simply got interested, after reading your article, and read more about him. Nevertheless, he was quite eccentric as a poltical and philosophical figure!

Kamila, very interesting ideas about Hobbes! However, by Hobbes for example finding other explanations might have been a "drive for pleasure" for him? Since finding another explanation to things is satisfactory, it is something we'd want to do if you would ask Hobbes :) So in that case, he was still functioning like a "machine", though that's not a very adequate description. To say that we have mechanical, programmed desires are more correct. Machines sounds like things who have no independant thoughts at all and no feelings, and this is not really what Hobbes meant.



Also, of course you can come with other theories of Hobbes' and discuss them!

Hello Lia!



Thomas Hobbes seems like a very inspirational person for me to think about. Just like you, I believe in atheism, and I believe that there is always a way to explain anything. I´ve been reading through your article and all the commets and I think it´s very good!



However, as some people claim that there is something "bigger", I just have to give my thought about that.



My veiw of the world is based on science, as I said, I believe that there is always a scientific way of explaining a phenomenon. We humans are organisms and we are as said all different. But that´s because we as organisms are constantly trying to evolve to survive better. Like Darwin claimed, I believe in the "survival of the fittest". And according to that theory, only the most fittest one will survive. Therefore, organisms change to fit their enviorment better. Our thoughts and our mind is something that has been introduced in our evolution.



Also, religion cannot be backed up with provements, while science can be. And if there is a scientific backup for religion, it´s not religion. It´s science.



// Erik

Erik, very good ideas! I agree completely! And I loved your statement about religion-science at the end :)



I also believe that we have our minds as they are today because of evolution. And I also believe that our minds are more complex than they were for, say, 10 000 years ago, since we evolve :) I don't believe that we've had such such complex feelings and thoughts since mankind first appeared on Earth, but that we've evolved them, like you said. And we wouldn't survive very long, as a race, if we didn't even have the most basic instincts like hunger and such, would we?

Really interesting thoughts everybody! I also liked the religion-science statement from Erik, but I still believe in a soul...



If we see it like this, we are all atoms and molecules just like a tree or a plastic bottle. Why is it forbidden to harm the atoms and molecules of a human being (kill a person) while it's not forbidden to destroy a plastic bottle? We are all built of atoms and molecules... Why is it like this? Why is it okay to make differece of atoms just because they are placed in different things?

Hanna, interesting thoughts. I don't think that you actually harm the atoms and molecules themself, simply make them lose their "bond", so to say. However, I'm not an expert on this.

I think that the major difference between us and plastic bottles are that we have thoughts and feelings, whereas bottles do not. We also feel if we're harmed, where bottles do not. Generally, it's not okay to harm something living, e.g. humans, animals and trees. To harm atoms and molecules themself isn't something that you usually do in everyday life, you can however harm the thing that they create, together. However, during a normal life-span of a human our atoms and molecules will all have been replaced at least once. So the body that we die in isn't really the same as the one we were born in.

Again, very interesting thoughts, I hadn't thought of it from that point of view!

Good article Lia, I do not think that I completely agree with Hobbes and I think that he sounded a bit negative but that is just my oppinion. But it was a really good article though.

Lia, you talk about thoughts and feelings...This is where I want to come! In my point of view it is our "soul"(call it what you want) which is harmed so the differece between us and a plastic bottle is that we have a soul (there are other differences as well of course ;) )

Hanna, that's where we differ. You believe in teh soul, I believe in the brain, so to speak. I don't think we'll be able to prove one or the other is right or wrong, unless we'll be able to prove if the soul exist or not. I'll just say that we know for sure that there is a brain, but we don't know if there is a soul

I agree with you Lia when you say that we know that we have a brain, but we are not sure if we have a soul. And as you said, we can't know now so just let us have our own opinions about this =)

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